Apr 22, 2021
Paul Casey:
Goals are dreams with a deadline. So you have to start somewhere
and that's some kind of dream or aspiration, and then you have to
have a deadline now, because it's not done until you get there.
Speaker 2:
Raising the water level of leadership in the Tri-Cities of Eastern
Washington, it's the Tri-Cities Influencer Podcast. Welcome to the
TCI Podcast, where local leadership and self-leadership expert Paul
Casey, interviews local CEOs, entrepreneurs, and non-profit
executives, to hear how they lead themselves and their teams, so we
can all benefit from their wisdom and experience. Here's your host,
Paul Casey, of Growing Forward Services. Coaching and equipping
individuals and teams to spark breakthrough success.
Paul Casey:
It's a great day to grow forward. Thanks for joining me for today's
episode with Bob Smart. Bob is the principal at Southgate
Elementary school, the proud home of The Dragons. And I asked Bob
for something quirky about him and he talked about Chuck Taylor's
sneakers. Bob, tell us more about that.
Bob Smart:
Well, I started getting Chuck Taylor's sneakers, old school sneaks
to match the colors of the schools that I was working with. And
then somewhere along the line Paul, it became kind of a problem.
I've done up two dozen pair and...
Paul Casey:
Two dozen pairs.
Bob Smart:
Yeah. Sadly true.
Paul Casey:
Are you competing with your wife or is this just she outpacing
you?
Bob Smart:
No. I have won that one. Yeah.
Paul Casey:
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Paul Casey:
Thank you for your support of leadership development in the
Tri-Cities. Well, welcome Bob. I was privileged to meet you, Boy,
how many years ago has it been?
Bob Smart:
It's been a number of years. I was trying to figure that out before
I came over.
Paul Casey:
Yeah. I'm going to guess seven or eight.
Bob Smart:
Yeah. Easily.
Paul Casey:
Yeah. You've spoken for... When I used to do these edge events, you
spoke for one of those and I was able to coach one of your
employees somewhere along the line, and one of the teams there. And
so, yeah, it's been great. I've always enjoyed your focus on
leadership and your enthusiasm. And so it's a pleasure to interview
you today. So that our Tri-City influencers can get to know you,
take us through a couple of career highlights that led you to your
current position.
Bob Smart:
Well, I've probably taken the scenic route. So I started off as a
science teacher and loved it and a baseball coach and loved that as
well. Ended up being the school principalship and loved doing that.
Had a tour of duty in central office as an assistant
superintendent, I was a professor and a Dean. I was teaching in the
grad school and I kept telling my students, which were principal
and superintendent candidates, that the best job is principal. And
then I got thinking, I was teaching a critical reflection class and
I got thinking, what am I saying? So luckily I found my current job
and they hired me and I love being a school principal.
Paul Casey:
And why do you love being a school principal?
Bob Smart:
I was just talking today to some folks that, if you like, anything
can happen. That's the job. And it's phenomenal. You get to work
with great kids, parents, teachers, staff. It's just a neat little
place.
Paul Casey:
I too, I've been a principal and it is a variety job. No two days
are exactly the same.
Bob Smart:
Yeah. Yeah.
Paul Casey:
I've chased children around the gymnasium, discipline issues. Yeah.
I've sprained my ankle playing freeze tag with children before. So
it's a great job, very stressful job for sure. And so you actually
were a principal, went to district office professor, came back to
that. Was that a difficult decision?
Bob Smart:
No, it really wasn't. Truly, it was thinking about what am I saying
about the principalship? And I think I have had enormous
satisfaction being a school principal.
Paul Casey:
So love what you do, is probably a philosophy that you would want
to put out there for the Tri-City influencer listeners.
Bob Smart:
Absolutely. I mean, if you do what you love, it's a great day every
day.
Paul Casey:
Yeah. So you're probably in your strengths zone, which multiplies
your influence. How do you add the most value to the school?
Bob Smart:
Well, I think I'm a good listener, and I think I'm pretty
thoughtful, and I think those skills really, really help. Pretty
present in the building, so I have a lot of conversations in a
day.
Paul Casey:
Do you intentionally pull yourself out of your office to be
present? Is that just natural for your personality style? Or do you
literally put that on your calendar, walk around?
Bob Smart:
Well, no, I do. I'm probably the opposite Paul. I have to return to
the office. The joke is that I could probably sublet that office.
I'm not in there that much. And there are definitely times I need
to be there and do those kinds of things. But really most of the
business is done in hallways, and walking around talking to people,
hearing their stories and what their hopes and dreams are, and
talking to kids all day.
Paul Casey:
What's been the net positive effect of that style of
leadership?
Bob Smart:
Probably situational awareness. Being out in the building, talking
to people, talking to kids, you can get a feel for what that tempo
is, where the issues are, and then where you can help out.
Paul Casey:
Yeah. It's the old managing by wandering around MBWA. Right?
Bob Smart:
Exactly.
Paul Casey:
You can curtail problems. People say like, "Oh, while you're here,
I've got a quick question." Right? Where they might not come to
your office.
Bob Smart:
Have you been following me around? It's like every day.
Paul Casey:
Yes. Since you're here.
Bob Smart:
Yeah. Since you're here Bob.
Paul Casey:
And the other opposite, is people start to distrust leaders that
they don't see. You've probably seen leaders or even principals
along the years, that are bound to their office. Right?
Bob Smart:
Yeah. And it's also for our parent group too, stakeholder group.
Because everyone has an experience with the school principal. And
what we've been trying to do, is kind of break down those
stereotypes.
Paul Casey:
Yeah.
Bob Smart:
And right now in COVID, it's really challenging.
Paul Casey:
Sure.
Bob Smart:
Prior to that, we see parents all the time and we try to stay away
from the principal's office, so that people have a different
experience so to speak.
Paul Casey:
I remember you teaching me that years ago, that people have
negative experiences with school principals from their childhood,
and you were trying to blast away at that stereotype by being one
of them and just leveling the playing field.
Bob Smart:
Indeed.
Paul Casey:
On the flip side, leaders have to be aware of their weaknesses. So
what is one of your favorite quote, unquote "ways" to sabotage
yourself?
Bob Smart:
I love how you put that. And I can sabotage myself in a variety of
ways, but one of the ones that I've had to get a handle on, is
overthinking, and over-planning, and over analysis. Having a
research background as such, I am real happy to try to
overcomplicate something. When in fact what I've learned from that
over time, is that a much more timely decision while maybe not the
perfect decision, is probably a better decision.
Paul Casey:
Yeah. That reminds me of Colin Powell, the battlefield, if he gets
80% of the information it gets to go forward.
Bob Smart:
Yeah.
Paul Casey:
You'll never get 100%.
Bob Smart:
Exactly. And the cost, the cost of the organization and the person,
to get that other little bit, isn't worth it.
Paul Casey:
Right. Right. It's minuscule. So I coach a lot of over
thinkers.
Bob Smart:
Yeah.
Paul Casey:
I think we should start over thinkers anonymous group here in the
Tri-Cities. What would you you say to an over thinker to try to
help them snap out of it and yet still be who they are?
Bob Smart:
Yeah. That's tough. I mean, because you've got to understand the
small game, and you've got to listen, and you've got to really
think about what people want. So I'll start a lot of conversations
with, "Do you want me just to listen? Do you want to work on a
plan?
Paul Casey:
That's good.
Bob Smart:
Or do we want to gather more data?" And such. And a lot of times,
it's just, Bob, I just want you to listen. And what I try to find,
is when I start breaking out pages of spreadsheets and pivot
tables, I normally try to have an intervention.
Paul Casey:
You just lost me so.
Bob Smart:
Well.
Paul Casey:
What's a pivot table?
Bob Smart:
It's something really cool, but it's probably just to me at
[inaudible 00:10:24]
Paul Casey:
Down in the weeds, right?
Bob Smart:
Yeah.
Paul Casey:
Just down in the weeds. No, that it's a great marriage principle as
well of, do you want me to still listen or do you want me to help
solve the problem?
Bob Smart:
Yeah.
Paul Casey:
Because if you can get ahead of that, you're going to get ahead of
the conflict that comes with, just listen, or I need you to help me
come up with a solution, stop staring at me. Either way it sets the
context for the conversation. Well, really do we achieve our
highest potential by ourselves? So Bob, who keeps you accountable
and energized, although you can feel the energy from Bob, can't you
listeners?. But who keeps you accountable to getting your
professional and personal goals accomplished?
Bob Smart:
One of the things I've done over the years and more recently than
ever, is sharing with people, asking for feedback, and doing that
in a genuine way. And telling folks, "Hey, when you see me start to
do this, would you let me know?" Kind of the thing. And it can be a
really difficult thing because you're setting down that mask and
that shield and such to get to that point. So that's really helped
me along. And what I have found is being a pretty approachable
person. Many people, [inaudible 00:11:44].
Paul Casey:
That's a blessing.
Bob Smart:
It's all blessing for sure.
Paul Casey:
Why don't more people especially leaders, ask for feedback? What's
your gut on that?
Bob Smart:
I think ultimately, it's got to have a root cause down in fear. And
I mean, people are stretched to their limit and we're all trying to
figure out who we are, and how we can do these kinds of complex
jobs like you talked about. And sometimes that feedback, especially
unvarnished feedback, it can kind of hurt. And we need to be able
to talk about that. And I think that's a start with valuing that
feedback.
Paul Casey:
That is so good. Yeah. I think there is that fear. There a little
bit of pride, maybe as well, like, oh, I think I'm doing the right
thing here and now you're telling me I'm not."
Bob Smart:
Right.
Paul Casey:
And I don't know if I like that.
Bob Smart:
Well, you're pretty invested in these things.
Paul Casey:
That's a good word. Invested. Yeah.
Bob Smart:
All of a sudden it's like, wow, I'm getting some feedback that
maybe this isn't the right course. In which genuine feedback and
those kinds of genuine relationships and a shared sense of where
we're going, I think is pretty powerful. But it's tough.
Paul Casey:
It is.
Bob Smart:
Yeah.
Paul Casey:
It is. And what a vulnerable question, when you see me doing this,
would you bring that up? I mean, that just shows you're working on
something.
Bob Smart:
Yeah.
Paul Casey:
And you really want to get better. Anybody that would say that
question wants to get better. And it just makes it easier for then
people around to go, "There it is again." And then you can chuckle
maybe even. And it sort of puts a little levity to that issue of
like, I interrupted again, or I'm talking too much, or whatever
that thing is. Well, replenishment of energy keeps a leader at the
top of their game. So Bob, principal's work is never done. Right?
You could work seven days a week and the to-do-list is still going
to be there. So what do you do to manage stress?
Bob Smart:
So my wife and I, we walk Howard Amon every day.
Paul Casey:
Really. Every day?
Bob Smart:
Snow, wind, slit, whatever. We walk it every single day. And if you
know of Howard Amon Park, there's a red bench up at the top, and
it's got a neat history to that bench. And we sit on that bench
every day. And we don't finish the day until we go out. And
sometimes that's eight o'clock at night with flashlights, or if I'm
feeling particularly goofy, I wear those things on my head and
those kinds of things. So we do that. That helps a lot. I also, I
try to laugh a lot. And if you can't find humor in a school, you're
not searching.
Paul Casey:
I've got a comedian buddy who started a Facebook group. You can all
look it up. It's called Work Happy. And it's all the different
ways, people in this group all are coming up with funny things to
bring levity to work. Because we default to the negativity due to
the stress of our job. So you've got to mix in laughter. And it is
a great stress reliever. It's one of the best, I think emotional
wellness habits that you can do.
Bob Smart:
You're right. You're so right.
Paul Casey:
And where is that bench by the way? So you've got the pool launch
there at Lee.
Bob Smart:
Okay.
Paul Casey:
Where's is it compared to that?
Bob Smart:
Well, if you keep going North and you go up, there's an old
building there. And you go up onto the dyke there, it's right at
the top.
Paul Casey:
Okay.
Bob Smart:
You can't miss it.
Paul Casey:
Okay.
Bob Smart:
So here's the real secret Paul.
Paul Casey:
All right.
Bob Smart:
You got to look on the back of it, because there's a neat little
plaque there. And I'll leave the rest to you.
Paul Casey:
Yeah. We'll just make that a little tease for the listeners.
Bob Smart:
Yeah. And so if you see a couple there say idle, because that's
probably my wife and I.
Paul Casey:
I love it. And that's quite the commitment to say, you're going to
do it every day, whether that's early or that's late.
Bob Smart:
That's right.
Paul Casey:
So you're getting exercise out of that, you're getting good
conversation with your wife.
Bob Smart:
Exactly.
Paul Casey:
And both of those distress you.
Bob Smart:
And laughter.
Paul Casey:
And laughter. Well, before we head to our next question on people
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Paul Casey:
Well Bob hiring in people development is crucial for leadership. If
you could clone the ideal employee, whether that's a teacher, or
support staff, anybody for your organization, what traits would
that person have?
Bob Smart:
I think a person needs to be flexible. I mean, we've gone through a
year of huge change, second order change. And I think that people
that are much more nimble, people that are flexible, are going to
be all right, but it's tough. And the second part, would be someone
with a fierce customer service, whether that's in education or
business I think is critical, an effective leader. And then I think
the thing that is the game-changer, that last 5%, is somebody
that's truly empathetic. Somebody that can truly empathize with
stakeholder groups, people you work with, clientele, customers.
Paul Casey:
You used the word fierce before customer service. Why did you
choose that word specifically?
Bob Smart:
I think that word is critical in the sense that, if you don't have
a commitment to your next in line customer, and you're not
absolutely committed to that, I think one, you lose genuineness and
I also think that you're not in a service role.
Paul Casey:
Yeah. I had a feeling you were going to say that word service. That
servant leader mentality, is gone when you get myopic. Just about
me and my world, instead of the customer, the constituent that
we're looking to serve.
Bob Smart:
Or transactional.
Paul Casey:
Oh yeah. Transactional.
Bob Smart:
Yeah. I mean, I think it's important to really have that
commitment. Because once you have that commitment, more positive
things from that relationship are going to come out it.
Paul Casey:
And it can become transformational, not just transactional, which
educators are in a transformational business. You mentioned empathy
as well. What does empathy sound like? What does it look like when
you're... Interviewing is a tough deal, right? How do you listen
for whether this person is going to be empathetic?
Bob Smart:
Well, I think some of it comes across as non-verbal inside those
kinds of conversations. So what we'll do oftentimes, is we'll talk
about scenarios. So here's the scenario that we oftentimes engage
in. And then based on that response, that gives us a little bit of
insight, whether or not you've got that empathetic response.
Because in our business, we're in a highly, emotionally driven
business. And oftentimes, we have to deescalate situations. And we
can do that through humor, through kindness, but also most
importantly through understanding.
Paul Casey:
Yeah. And that is so true that in hiring, if you were to say, "Hey,
Paul give me a set of interview questions." I probably give you
half of them that are scenario based, because people can be ready
to answer the, "What are your strengths and weaknesses," questions.
They're ready for a whole bunch of those, but they're not ready for
the scenario ones. That's where the true person comes out. So I've
had emerging leaders tell me they want to grow in thinking
strategically. And they're like, "How I do that?" So what tips
would you give on how to look at the big picture for greater
longterm impact?
Bob Smart:
I would recommend that you study Red Tail Hawks. And that's kind of
an odd response. But when you think about it, as a kid I grew up
watching these red tail Hawk sit on top of these peepee apples. And
then later on I found they've actually got two visions. One is on
the horizon so they know when to pull up. And the other one is very
focused and almost using a set of binoculars. So kind of a
short-term in there, but having that eye for that horizon to get to
whatever is going to happen.
Paul Casey:
The Red-Tail Hawk.
Bob Smart:
Yeah.
Paul Casey:
What an illustrative example of that. So it's looking long-term
like you said the horizon, and then there's sort of the micro
level. What are the small acts of leadership if done daily, can
make a positive difference in the lives of teams?
Bob Smart:
I think being present, just being there, and talking to people,
being seen, being visible. If you ask our kindergartners what I do,
they say I boss cars. Because they see me out there in the parking
lot, but we engage an awful lot of business in the parking lot,
talking to parents, talking to kids, welcoming kids, especially
during uncertain times. And...
Paul Casey:
Because you could delegate that, right?
Bob Smart:
Indeed.
Paul Casey:
You could say, "I don't want to be in that parking lot. The
weather's crummy again today." But you choose to do that.
Bob Smart:
That's right. I choose to do that. And I think that's also part of
my role is tone at the top. And demonstrating that welcoming, that
assistance, that service, same thing at recess for our folks as
well.
Paul Casey:
Tone at the top Tri-City influence listeners. Bob, flush that out a
little bit more.
Bob Smart:
Well, I can espouse a variety of things.
Paul Casey:
Sure.
Bob Smart:
I can say, "Hey, it's really important for us to be outside, it's
really important for us to greet people, it's really important for
us to insert." But if I demonstrate that, that's so much more
powerful. Meeting kids at the doorway, "How are you doing?"
Especially now. Kids are scared, parents are scared. And having
that opportunity. Also, when the principal is out in front of the
building, as you well know, it is a certain reassurance.
Paul Casey:
Confidence builder.
Bob Smart:
Yeah. Plus we get to have a two minute conversation and if we
scheduled a meeting, it would have been 30, 45 minutes.
Paul Casey:
So [crosstalk 00:23:29]. Are you saying it's an exit strategy for
the long-winded people?
Bob Smart:
No, I wouldn't say that.
Paul Casey:
No, it's a lot of mini conversations...
Bob Smart:
It is.
Paul Casey:
... That cumulatively turn out to be a culture.
Bob Smart:
Yeah.
Paul Casey:
And so you said, especially in these times. So let me take a quick
side jont here by saying, what else is important in these uncertain
times for leaders to do? You said to welcome them, be visible
during this time. Any other strategies you're employing to try to
help people deescalate some of these emotions?
Bob Smart:
Part of it is it's going to get better. And if you're not an
optimist and looking forward with this, people are looking to
leadership to, is it going to be okay? And it's going to be okay.
We're going to get through this. We always do. And I think at some
point Paul, it's ultimately love. It's really helping reassure
folks and take care of people, that during really, really tough
times. And in my line of work in schools, schools have a very
important role in getting whatever stases and calm.
Paul Casey:
So as we try to balance people, because you're a people person with
administrative tasks, you probably have to utilize some other
people and who are stronger, where you might be a little weaker. So
do you use your office staff, your administrative professionals to
help you with that?
Bob Smart:
Well, we always have more work than we can possibly do.
Paul Casey:
Sure.
Bob Smart:
And I have to watch where I put what limited time I've got.
Paul Casey:
Yeah.
Bob Smart:
And I've got to be pretty focused on that. And I think you gave me
an idea a long time ago. I still have it on my phone even.
Paul Casey:
No way.
Bob Smart:
Who can do this work? And every time... I don't make a lot of phone
calls anymore, but I think about that. Because oftentimes that's a
growth opportunity for somebody else that can do it. And then I can
put whatever energies I have, into whatever I'm doing, whatever
mischief I'm creating.
Paul Casey:
Yeah. Sometimes leaders have to be at the 30,000 foot level,
sometimes at 15,000 feet. And today I think all of our listeners
have got from you, you've got to be on the tarmac once in a
while.
Bob Smart:
I think you're right. Yeah. I think that's true.
Paul Casey:
Well, some of our TCI listeners asked you, what two to three books
or resources they must read, in order to grow their leadership
skills. Where would you point them?
Bob Smart:
I would start off with Ron Heifetz's book, Leadership Without Easy
Answers. And so that's from the Kennedy School of Government. And
that was written a number of years ago, but he really sets up the
arguments for a leader to understand what is happening on the dance
floor below.
Paul Casey:
Yes.
Bob Smart:
And then the differentiating between a technical response and
something else.
Paul Casey:
Adaptive. Right?
Bob Smart:
Exactly.
Paul Casey:
Is that the other one? Yeah.
Bob Smart:
Yeah.
Paul Casey:
I love that one.
Bob Smart:
So I just think, it is so powerful. It is really, really helped me
think about my role as a leader.
Paul Casey:
Yeah. That's a good one. I use that, get up in the balcony and look
on the dance floor.
Bob Smart:
That's right.
Paul Casey:
All the time I'd probably need to quote him, because I've totally
stolen that. What's another resource that you'd point people
to?
Bob Smart:
I like Drive by Daniel Pink and understanding that really at the
end of the day, people are looking at self-direction. I think
effective leaders create opportunities for folks to direct their
work. And I think that's a powerful outcome. And I think that goes
all the way back to what we're talking about, as far as if you care
about people and helping them reach their goals. So that's a
powerful work I like. The other one, is... And I think about it
more often in the last year to 18 months, is Richard Swenson's work
on Margin.
Paul Casey:
Yes.
Bob Smart:
I love that.
Paul Casey:
Yes.
Bob Smart:
And it's such an easy equation, but extremely difficult to do.
Resources minus load equals margin.
Paul Casey:
Yes.
Bob Smart:
And what I find with leaders, is that we can operate in negative
margin for a while and you would never redline your car. The
engine's going to blow up. Well, not altogether different than
that. So I think having conversations about margin, is really
important in a longterm look at leadership.
Paul Casey:
Boy, you're the only other person I think that has mentioned that
book...
Bob Smart:
Really?
Paul Casey:
... In my life. Yes. I read it years ago in an administrative
conference in Seaside, Oregon. I still remember when he came to
speak and yeah, the whole load minus limits equals margin and you
can't go into negative margin.
Bob Smart:
Yeah.
Paul Casey:
But our bodies were not meant to stay in overdrive for too long.
He's got some good stuff on nutrition in there. This is years and
years ago. But all the different ways that we need to build more
white space into our day, to absorb the unexpected. I remember that
phrase.
Bob Smart:
All those curves are the same. You can put all those curves
together, whether it's nutrition or whether it's health, they all
say the same thing. And my area of research is the principalship
and rapid promotion and what happens. And the concern I have, is
that the attrition rate for school principals is quite high, same
as teachers. And it's alarming. And I think part of the answer has
to do with having more honest conversations about margin.
Paul Casey:
So good. Well, finally Bob, what advice would you give to new
leaders or anyone who wants to keep growing and gaining more
influence?
Bob Smart:
We talked a little bit about this before. I would still make a
list, but I'd be willing to chuck it in the first hour and be okay
with that.
Paul Casey:
Oh no. You're giving me convulsions.
Bob Smart:
This is probably an overused cliche, but listen, learn and lead. I
just think that's powerful. And I think it's okay to take some time
to understand something, to really be in a position to where you
can lead. And then finally, I think don't take yourself seriously.
And I crack myself up all the time with the goofy things I do and
that's okay.
Paul Casey:
Listen to learn to lead the three L's. Don't take yourself too
seriously. These are great takeaways. Bob, how can our listeners
best connect with you?
Bob Smart:
Well, I'm in the land of The Dragons at Southgate Elementary and
where every day is the dragonrific day and pretty easy to get ahold
of. And so...
Paul Casey:
Thank you so much for all you do to make Tri-Cities a great place
and keep leading well. Let me wrap up our podcast today with a
leadership resource to recommend. This past year have gotten
certified in the EIQ, which is the Emotional Intelligence Quotient
assessment. And so it assesses you in three areas,
self-recognition, social recognition, self-management and social
management. So for 60 bucks, you could take this assessment.
Paul Casey:
I'd be happy to debrief it with you. You can do a retreat for your
team on it and to do a group debrief, so that the entire
organization, or your entire leadership team, can raise the
emotional intelligence level, which is one of the best leadership
pursuits you could have for your professional development this
year.
Paul Casey:
Again, this is Paul Casey. I want to thank my guest, Bob Smart from
Southgate Elementary, land of The Dragons, for being here today on
Tri-Cities Influencer Podcast. And we want to thank our TCI sponsor
and invite you to support them. We appreciate you making this
possible, so we can collaborate to inspire leaders in our
community.
Paul Casey:
Finally, one more leadership tidbit for the road, to help you make
a difference in your circle of influence. Milton Berle said, "If
opportunity doesn't knock, build a door." Till next time KGF, Keep
Growing Forward.
Speaker 2:
Thank you to our listeners for tuning in to today's show. Paul
Casey is on a mission to add value to leaders, by providing
practical tools and strategies, that reduce stress in their lives
and on their teams, so that they can enjoy life and leadership and
experience their key desired results.
Speaker 2:
If you'd like more help from Paul in your leadership development,
connect with him at growingforward@paulcasey.org, for a
consultation that can help you move past your current challenges
and create a strategy for growing your life or your team
forward.
Speaker 2:
Paul would also like to help you restore your sanity to your crazy
schedule and getting your priorities done every day, by offering
you his free control mind calendar checklist. Go to
www.takebackmycalendar.com for that productivity tool, or open a
text message 272000 and type the word grow.
Paul Casey:
Tri-Cities Influencer Podcast was recorded at Fuse SPC by Bill
Wagner of Safe Strategies