Oct 7, 2020
Richa Sigdel:
The chains of habit are too light to be felt until they're too heavy to be broken. I'm Richa Sigdel, and I'm Tri-City Influencer.
Paul Casey:
Keep reinforcing that everyone must place the common good of the team above their own agenda. If one area wins, the whole team wins.
Speaker 1:
Raising the water level of leadership in the Tri-Cities of Eastern Washington, it's the Tri-Cities Influencer podcast. Welcome to the TCI podcast, where local leadership and self-leadership expert Paul Casey interviews local CEOs, entrepreneurs, and nonprofit executives to hear how they lead themselves and their teams so we can all benefit from their wisdom and experience. Here's your host, Paul Casey of Growing Forward Services, coaching and equipping individuals and teams to spark breakthrough success.
Paul Casey:
Thanks for joining me for today's episode with Brett Spooner. Brett is the founder and CEO of Gravis Law. And, let's see, fun fact about Brett, he's just told me he's been a gamer for a long time. But specifically Brett, tell us the story.
Brett Spooner:
All right. Thanks for having me here today. So basically, in 1999, I started playing an MMORPG called EverQuest. Started out as a wizard named Merlin and found out a little bit about copyright and trademark law and they made me change my name. But I played that game pretty much for most of my high school career and into college, actually ended up playing it all the way through law school.
Paul Casey:
Through law school?
Brett Spooner:
I created a successful guild in the game and was the raid leader and guild leader for over a decade, and learned a lot of great leadership and soft skills managing hundreds of people on an online platform. There's a lot to be said in leading a online community, a lot of different personality quirks. You have anything from high schoolers to professional doctors and attorneys. It's a really interesting dynamic to think that in a game space, that at a given time, you might be trying to manage those different types of completely different personalities from different walks of life. I always got a lot of enjoyment, not so much out of the game, but out of the leadership and community development component.
Paul Casey:
That was a great link to our podcast, Brett, because the gamers are totally in for the rest of the interview and the others, it went over their head, but were like, "Oh, but you linked it to leadership." So way to go. We're going to dive in after checking with our Tri-City Influencer sponsor.
Paul Casey:
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Paul Casey:
Well welcome, Brett. I was privileged to meet you several years ago, I think it was through a chamber event, and I had heard great things about you and said, "Would you speak for one of my Edge events?" Which was this thing of combining Papa John's Pizza with Preston House and professional development, had three speakers join me and we did this every other month, and I still remember your presentation on generations in the workplace. And you enlightened us all about the millennial generation. So that our Tri-City Influencers can get to know you, take us through a couple of career highlights that led you to your current position and tell us why you love what you do.
Brett Spooner:
Great, thanks. So, I mean I'm kind of a bit of a walking contradiction. I started out in computer science and my goal at that time was very into technology, was playing EverQuest and love video games, built most of my computers through the nineties and was doing some basically web development for the high school and was really into the technology side. So it seemed like a natural place for me to gravitate in college. I learned really quickly in undergrad that I had a fascination for more of the business side than the technical side. I didn't mind doing the software development side and the web development side, it was enjoyable when it was just kind of creative and mostly enjoyed doing it, though realized that I enjoy doing it because I like working with the clients. And as I moved through computer science, I realized I just wasn't getting what I wanted out of the utilization of my soft skills and the desire to work with business sitting at a computer all day.
Brett Spooner:
And so I had this moment of decision-making where I had to decide if I was going to go into the business school program or maybe explore a law degree. I ended up choosing, heading towards a law degree, leveraged a lot of my technology background on that path. But basically after undergrad, went into the workforce for four years, while my wife wrapped up her master's degree, we got married after undergrad and decided two of us working after degree did not make sense.
Paul Casey:
Smart.
Brett Spooner:
And so kept on the path to law school ended up graduating law school and starting my own practice and really just focusing on that business side of things. So Gravis started as a boutique business transactional firm. We did mostly outside general counsel for early stage companies, a lot of business formation and those types of things and it allowed me to really work with the business owners and share that knowledge. And naturally, again, I gravitated towards technology clients, so worked with software companies in the software as a service space.
Brett Spooner:
And that was a really great experience. I got to work with a lot of emerging companies, a lot of entrepreneurs. And through that process, I started reflecting on the legal industry and there's just so many shortcomings in law and the practice of law and the delivery of the service that I actually focused in on Gravis. Instead of continuing to grow the transactional practice, I really looked at how we could address legal service more at a larger scale nationally and we decided in 2016 to start growing Gravis. And that's what I've been focused on since 2016 is really Gravis Law as a growth company and building out a national business platform for the provision of legal service across all areas of law.
Paul Casey:
And tell us now how expansive Gravis has become.
Brett Spooner:
So we have over a hundred employees now, we're in six states, we have 14 offices and we're growing every year, we've grown 300% year over year for the last three years. It's incredible, we're probably going to hire another 50 employees next year.
Paul Casey:
Wow. Congratulations. And why do you love what you do?
Brett Spooner:
Well, I get the best mix of all areas of my interest. We leverage technology in Gravis Law really intentionally. So we have a custom software platform that we've built in the law firm that we run our practice on and helps provide delivery of service. And it's been a really fun technology component to what we do. We innovate technology in all areas of improving client service, but then I get to work with people and the business, and really focus on how to get access to law out nationally and do it in a way that's rewarding to me as an entrepreneur.
Paul Casey:
Very cool. And we sit here in the Fuse studio, you had a hand in Fuse as well, didn't you?
Brett Spooner:
Yeah, I was one of the co-founders of Fuse back in 2013 when we landed in the Tri-Cities. One of the first things I did was look for the entrepreneurial and startup community, naturally go to the chamber events and start looking around and found a group that had started a nonprofit called Room to Think, just as Room to Think was shutting down. And so we kind of did a post-mortem of why that shut down and where the need was and a group of us recognized that there was still a need for a place to aggregate those sorts of things. And that was kind of the history of Fuse. We started in an old building on G Way across the street and continued to grow and expand that to meet the demands and needs of the new businesses forming in the community.
Paul Casey:
And now it's helped many different people have a good start.
Brett Spooner:
Yeah, we've had a lot of success with early stage companies. We're seeing a big influx of freelancers over the last few years, certainly COVID has changed the dynamic a little bit about space utilization, but I think what we recognize pretty universally is that there is an exodus happening from the major metros and people are going to be at home freelancing and telecommuting into work. And so a place like Fuse allows a nice blend of human interaction and support. It's very supportive of a hybrid freelance telecommute type of scenario.
Paul Casey:
So throughout your journey, Brett, you've had obstacles to success. What's one of the biggest hurdles that you overcame in your career?
Brett Spooner:
That's a good question. I think one of the challenges to building any sort of growth company in today's ecosystem is really just a large shift in the way that the banking industry underwrites early stage companies and the entrepreneurial class, or the younger generation coming out of education with a lot of liability. So for my wife and I, we both came out with undergraduate debt and then we both had graduate debt. And so when we were launching into business, it was definitely an interesting challenge to try to decide how to deploy resources with all of the education debt and still take that leap of entrepreneurship into small business.
Brett Spooner:
We were very fortunate, Tracy took the stable nine to five and I kind of dove in to the small business side of things and started Gravis and other entrepreneurial pursuits. And that worked for us, we were able to balance that, but that challenge of navigating how to get that right, there were moments where I almost took the nine to five multiple times just to have the stability of that W-2 income and that risk of taking that leap, it's a big one.
Paul Casey:
Yeah, I coached an attorney this morning and he told me that some of the other attorneys have so much debt from their school loans that their children will be entering college and they won't have it close to paid off.
Brett Spooner:
I think the average right now, by the time you're done with law school, is about 150 to $200,000. So I know a lot of people where they're both went and got law degrees, Tracy has a couple of masters. The average student loan for a dual advanced degree household is north of three or $400,000. And oddly enough, the interest rates are not favorable on those. I mean, depending on the interest rate climate, but right now, most of them consolidate around 7% or 8%. So you can imagine how long you're paying to catch up on those.
Paul Casey:
Well, way to persevere.
Brett Spooner:
Yeah, thanks.
Paul Casey:
And leadership is still difficult, like you said, even with all that fantastic growth. What's your biggest ongoing challenge as a leader, what's really stretching you?
Brett Spooner:
There's this thing called the valley and people reference it differently. But for me, I think it's that moment where your business expands from a point where one leader can navigate all of the different personalities and carry that business forward. And that's usually somewhere around 20 or 30 employees, a good leader can keep everybody happy and can give everybody the right amount of time. But as you expand beyond that, and as you start growing into multiple locations or business verticals, you just can't do it. And so between 30 employees and whenever you can get the organization profitable again, which depends on the area you're in, is 'the valley'. And you're always going to be losing money as you develop management, and you grow out infrastructure necessary to scale a business because it takes an IT department all of a sudden, it takes an HR department, it takes a marketing department.
Brett Spooner:
There's all of these expenses that live in 'the valley' that are dangerous and full of landmines. And so getting from point A to point B usually takes years. And so you have to have an investment strategy to get through 'the valley', and you have to have a really great team that's willing to kind of persevere through all of those challenges that come out, because really what you're doing is trying to impart and empower mid-management to be successful with all the bits and pieces so you can scale the organization. It's a place you don't want to spend a lot of time. It's not a very fun area of business logistics. It's stressful. It's the times when you wake up and wonder if you're going to hit payroll, it's the, "Should I have brought in the outside IT vendor? Should I have hired the CTO? Did I make the right choice on a buy vs rent type of scenario?" All those things you have to navigate in that stretch of time.
Brett Spooner:
And so it's on one hand, very, very exhilarating and it's kind of like an adrenaline rush. I consider that we're through 'the valley' and it's nice to be on the other side and feel like, okay, now we can work on process and we can work on the team's doing great, but I can think of 10 or 20 stories that would take an entire podcast to tell through 'the valley'. And it's funny too because you can always talk to a business owner who is navigating and you always know if they're in it, if they've overcome it.
Paul Casey:
Pre-valley, mid-valley.
Brett Spooner:
And a lot of people go in and then they retreat and then they go in and then they retreat and they go in and it's because you have to just run through it and there has to be a way to survive to the other side.
Paul Casey:
Yeah. Well, just to double click on that for a moment. So for our listeners, when do you know it's time to add either another level or just another person on your team? What have you learned over the years?
Brett Spooner:
Well, I certainly wouldn't go into 'the valley' alone. I wouldn't be running in there by yourself without having a core team ready to run beside you because you're going to lose people along the way and you've got to be there on the other side, ideally. So it's not saying that you're taking in people to sacrifice, but you just won't make it to the other side without support. And you need to have a little bit of bench depth in key areas of the business so that as you build up new areas, you can move your focus around because you can't be everywhere at once, so you've got to have a really good right arm team left. You just got to have people on each side of you and somebody who can really watch out for core business aspects. I always say, assess your strengths and weaknesses and make sure that you've got somebody who is there to plug, be there for your weak spots, because they'll really come out to air when things get tough.
Paul Casey:
Yeah, stress reveals character.
Brett Spooner:
Yeah. It does, it does. It really does. And areas that when you're really stressed, you don't want to focus on the things that you're not good at or that are the toughest challenges. We should always go there first, but we don't.
Paul Casey:
We don't, that's right. So if you had a leadership philosophy that you would put front and center on a bulletin board in front of your office or on the road for all to see, what would those messages look like?
Brett Spooner:
I'm a big fan of the book by Marc Lesser called Know Yourself, Forget Yourself. And there's, I think, five truths in this book. I don't have them memorized unfortunately, though I pull them up in all my leadership retreats. But for me it is about embracing paradox, that everything that we say and we do in business is really contradictory and understanding that that's okay is almost an epiphany that frees you from feeling hypocritical at times, or when you run into those challenges and you can't get comfortable with the decision or the reason or the why, it's because it isn't very crystal clear. It never is. And so this idea that paradox is such a real thing, you have to know yourself really well, but at the same time, you've got to forget it.
Brett Spooner:
I know there's one that's like, question everything, but accept what is. You have to be able to accept both of those things. You've got to be able to help others and benefit yourself at the same time. But you can do that. You can both make a living and build an entrepreneurial destiny while helping people. And so there's five of them and at the heart of it, though, is this concept of paradox that these things are almost polarizing statements, but in the middle and in embracing both as okay extremes, we really actually find solace.
Paul Casey:
Yeah. It's like a tension to manage, it's not going to go away. Know Yourself, Forget Yourself. We'll put those in the show notes. Most influencers I know have a bit of visionary inside of them and I would definitely put a capital V by your name on that one, Brett. So where do you take time to dream about the future? What does that look like for you?
Brett Spooner:
Thanks. Yeah, that's an interesting question for me. I really have a couple extreme tendencies, I have this desire to figure out how to affect commercialization of space and work on some really hard science ideas that I have. And so I mean, for me it's, how do we resolve some of these big issues? And sometimes I feel like in entrepreneurship, we have a bunch of people running around building mobile apps and software games and we don't focus enough of our brain space on complicated issues, survival of humanity from asteroids and those types of things. I think that's where I dream.
Brett Spooner:
I think what we're doing in Gravis Law is fantastic, we're really bringing a lot of accessibility to a lot of people, but there are other issues that I think I dream about sometimes. And I don't know if another quirky thing about me, I really like space sci-fi, so I'm kind of a space geek, a closet case. I read a lot of books all the time and I kind of dream of space.
Paul Casey:
You and Elon Musk, right there.
Brett Spooner:
I know, it's almost a cliche now. I was thinking about this stuff before Bezos and Musk were building rocket ships so now I don't want to do that.
Paul Casey:
That's funny. Well, hey, before we head to our next question with Brett, a shout out to our sponsor. Barracuda Coffee, born and brewed in the Tri-City since 2003. At Barracuda Coffee, it's people first, then great coffee. Barracuda features freshly roasted coffees from their own signature roastery, Charis Coffee Roasting Company. With fresh coffee always on the shelf from all over the world, you can taste the distinct floral flavors of Latin American coffees from countries like Costa Rica, Guatemala, and Honduras. Savor the delicate berry notes that are dominant in African coffees from Burundi, Rwanda, Ethiopia, or Kenya, or go for the full earthy tones of the South Pacific coffees from Timor, Indonesia or Sumatra. Ask your barista what's fresh and try something new today. Barracuda has two locations over Van Geisen in Richland or on Kellogg Street in Kennewick. And you can find them on Facebook.
Paul Casey:
So Brett, what's your typical morning routine look like? Before work, once you arrive at work, do you have any rituals that help you start the day strong?
Brett Spooner:
My morning routine has varied a lot over the years. Most recently, we have a four year old and a six year old and so my wife and I have always balanced morning routines and pickup routines. So my morning routine is actually taking care of the kids and getting them ready in the morning. So I really tried to balance my morning routine around positive family time. I do check into work between 5:00 and 6:30 AM before the kids are up usually, I clear out my email and make sure that I can really focus on them in the morning. So basically 6:30 to 9:00, I'm spending time with the kids, reading a book, getting some quality family time in, try to really give them attention in the morning and be present. And then that kind of triggers when I'm later in the evening or have traded that pickup time in the evening, I've had that opportunity to have some quality time with them each morning before we get them off to school or in lock down, it's kind of been a weird world the last few months to say the least.
Paul Casey:
Yeah. You mentioned clearing your email early. So there's two schools of thought that I've read, one is don't check your email first thing in the morning, attack your priorities. The other is, I want to get ahead of anything, see if there's any disasters, sort of map out the day. So you've chosen the latter, which is clearing the email. What led you to that?
Brett Spooner:
Well, for me, we're on East Coast Time, we have offices on East Coast Time. So if I don't check my email at a reasonable time in the morning and our general counsel's in Florida, so we're on East Coast. So there's too big of a time lag between my 9:00 AM touching the desk, I would have an anxiety. It's almost like a need to resolve future anxiety. I mean, I'm sure probably everything would be fine if I didn't check my email, but there's enough times where a quick email in the 30 minute to an hour window I have in the morning can give a couple hour headstart to a project or get things on rails. And so I try to do that.
Brett Spooner:
I don't dive into every email and read them and respond to them, I'm really making sure that I've assessed if there's anything that's critical that I address in that morning window. And then I know when I'm with the kids, it's not on the back of my mind. I get to be as present as possible in that time with them in the morning.
Paul Casey:
Fantastic. So you've told me your schedule before, how do you not burn out, Brett? So what's the everyday grind, and of course you love work and you love your business and you love your family, how do you not burn out?
Brett Spooner:
Yeah, that's a good question. Well, I have burned out. I've definitely hit burnout at numerous stages in the last five years. And it's basically from 2013 until now. Tracy and I own 15, 20 businesses at this point we're owners co-founders of, and we're in real estate and we're the distillery and the software. And I think, A, I get a good diversification of business. It's a very different challenge in one business than the other. I mean, there's a lot of similarities, but it keeps things fresh. And it keeps me focused and attentive and I have to be really intentional about what I do, but I do burn out. And when it happens, I think I really end up going outside and doing yard work or finding a reset for that. And I have to make tough choices sometimes and step back on projects, which I feel bad about. There's organizations and groups that I'd like to give more of my time right now, but it's just not possible.
Brett Spooner:
And of course, with the family, you got to balance that too. So trying to find that healthy balance. When we started all this, we didn't have kids. So we had a couple start-ups in the household we had to navigate through as we've grown these businesses, but Tracy and I are a great team. All of our entrepreneurial efforts are really collaborative. And so we do talk about it at home and it's a way of life. It's a very integrated path. And I've said this before and talked about it, I don't believe in work-life balance, I really believe in integration. And I think it's okay to bring work home and make it a part of the house and the family and there's a lot of benefit and support to be had making it a positive thing at home. It doesn't need to be something that's shed at the door. I mean, there's aspects of it you definitely can't bring home, not the drama or the baggage, but the vision and the excitement and all the great things that we're doing for the people that we're helping, those are positive talks in our house.
Paul Casey:
Yeah. So I heard you say variety keeps things fresh, being able to toggle between a lot of different things that give you passion. I heard you say some kind of therapeutic activity, which could be yard work, could be just something that you can shut your brain off for a little bit and just be active. The unity with your partner is critical to your success and then stepping back once in a while, when you do get to that burnout or on the edge, I like to say, read your gauges and if you see one running a little hot, the sooner you can recognize that, you'll stay out of the weeds, out of that burnout.
Brett Spooner:
Yeah and it's safe to say, I do have a high tolerance for burnout though. I mean, I work a lot across all of those different things. And I mean, I enjoy it. I think that helps. I really do enjoy everything that I am working on. And I tend to let go of the things that I'm not enjoying. So it's nice to have that opportunity to make those choices and I think that keeps it fresh too.
Paul Casey:
Are you saying your kids were a start-up in the home?
Brett Spooner:
Yeah.
Paul Casey:
I just caught that little bit.
Brett Spooner:
I don't know. I remember making some bold claims about I'm going to do this many startups in this many years and shortly after that I said, "Eric, do kids count as a startup? Because I kind of feel like we've got a couple going on here."
Paul Casey:
I love it. Well, influencers aren't know-it-alls, but they're learners, so where do you go for the wisest advice? I know a lot of people want to bend your ear, but you of course have to keep listening as well. Those could be live people, well they're all live people, I guess, or they could be authors, motivators, industry professionals that you just sort of keep an eye on.
Brett Spooner:
Yeah. So I've always had a great group of mentors or other business leaders that I connect with. I do a tremendous amount of reading, and I think there's a lot to be learned from just good leadership books like Know Yourself, Forget Yourself. And I could go on the list of, great books that help really connect leadership traits. But I also think that there's a lot to be had in the soft skill side of science fiction and fantasy books as well. There's a lot of political sort of business entrepreneurial concepts that can be had just reading these different worlds and these different societies and ecosystems develop, it's really fascinating to follow the soft skill side of human tendency and read how character personalities play out over and over again. And I actually gleaned a lot from that. I don't know if a lot of people think about it that way, but as I'm reading through it, and I'm definitely assessing the personalities and psychology of a lot of the people and I think I learn a lot from that.
Paul Casey:
I was in a church once where they had a Star Trek group and they were deriving life lessons from the episodes. So I think that's what you're doing there.
Brett Spooner:
Yeah, they probably shouldn't do it that way or that's a good idea, that's a really subtle management redirect, I like how they did that. It was all offered, but it worked well, different personality types for you.
Paul Casey:
Yeah. So for our listeners who do like to read, are there some books that you can throw out there for us that come to mind or influencers that you would say, these are some folks that really have their head screwed on right and if you listen to their stuff, you'd probably end up on the right path?
Brett Spooner:
Well, definitely Know Yourself, Forget Yourself. That's probably my top recommend, especially for business leaders trying to figure out how to reconcile a lot of the things that happen in a growth company. And then Brad Feld, his Startup Communities was really an important read for me when I was trying to understand what entrepreneurial ecosystems and business development looks like in a community like the Tri-Cities. I subsequently read his book Startup Life, which I took a lot from his book, Startup Life. It's not an analogous book for a smaller midsize market, it's very much kind of maybe a little more Silicon Valley market geared, but there's absolutely some great advice in there about entrepreneurial married couples and family, and kind of how you balance the demands and the stress of being a business owner and dual working households and that sort of thing. So I found a lot of value in that, but those are some to start off with.
Paul Casey:
Okay. So finally, Brett, what advice would you give to new leaders or anyone who wants to keep growing and gaining more influence?
Brett Spooner:
Let's see. I mean for me, and I tell this to people in my organization all the time, you just got to try it, not be afraid to make a mistake and pivot. The worst thing you can do is have paralysis by analysis and I think a lot of leaders and managers are afraid to make big changes. I think you've got to build a culture of it, and I mean, we maybe sometimes tip the line at Gravis of too much change and I'll have to dial it back and I'll realize I didn't handle change control well enough, or I made too many big changes at once, but I found that the people who have grown with me in the business have really, really embraced that, I mean, they talk about it, like it's part of our business culture.
Brett Spooner:
I think it's important. I think it's important for new business leaders and entrepreneurs going in to just accept that the more I know and the more that I navigate through, the less I know. I think there's moments in time where I had a lot more self-confidence and then I learned like, "Wow, I really just didn't know anything. I don't even know what the hell was I doing." And so it's just, you're going to mess up and you've got to just start figuring it out. Trial and error's a real thing.
Paul Casey:
Yeah. Embrace change, poke the box, pivot, yep. Good stuff. Good stuff. So Brett, how can our listeners best connect with you?
Brett Spooner:
Brett@gravislaw.com. Happy to receive emails and always willing to have a video conference or hopefully we can start having coffee soon again and all that fun stuff, but I've always made myself available to the community. I'm always happy to go out and have lunch coffee or grab a video conference.
Paul Casey:
Yeah. Thanks for what you contribute to the Chamber of Commerce and just this entire Tri-Cities community. So keep leading well.
Brett Spooner:
Well, thanks Paul. Thanks for having me, appreciate what you guys are doing here and excited for the next 12 months in the Tri-Cities. I think we get to open up and go back to business.
Paul Casey:
Yay. Let me wrap up our podcast today with a leadership resource to recommend. John Kotter is one of my favorite authors for leading change, and he has an eight step process for leading change that might interest you. It's at kotterinc, K-O-T-T-E-R-I-N-C, .com. And if you really want to get better at the skill and leadership of being a change leader, you might enjoy his eight step process.
Paul Casey:
Again, this is Paul Casey, and I want to thank my guest Brett Spooner from Gravis Law for being here today in the Tri-Cities Influencer podcast. And we want to thank our TCI sponsor and invite you to support them too. We appreciate you making this possible so we can collaborate to help inspire leaders in our community. Finally, one more leadership tidbit for the road to help you make a difference within your circle of influence is from Julie Andrews, she says perseverance is failing 19 times and succeeding the 20th. Until next time, KGF, keep growing forward.
Speaker 1:
Thank you to our listeners for tuning into today's show. Paul Casey is on a mission to add value to leaders by providing practical tools and strategies that reduce stress in their lives and on their teams so that they can enjoy life and leadership and experience their key desired results. If you'd like more help from Paul in your leadership development, connect with him at growingforward@paulcasey.org for a consultation that can help you move past your current challenges and create a strategy for growing your life or your team forward.
Speaker 1:
Paul would also like to help you restore your sanity to your crazy schedule and getting your priorities done every day by offering you his free Control My Calendar checklist, go to www.takebackmycalendar.com for that productivity tool or open a text message to 72000 and type the word growing.
Paul Casey:
Tri-Cities Influencer podcast was recorded at Fuse SPC by Bill Wagner of Safe strategies.